Posts by Cold Steel

4

An Open Letter to the Governing Body

by The Searcher in

dear brothers, the following paragraph was presented by you as "food at the proper time" only 40 months ago.. .

.

Cold Steel

I suppose the nation that was created in 1947 was just a prophetic coincidence?

19

Captain America and The Avengers!

by Cold Steel in

does the wts oppose movies such as thor, captain america, and the avengers on the basis of thor/loki's godhood and captain america's patriotic bent?

or do they let artistic license slide for such movies?.

how about super hero movies in general?.

Does the WTS oppose movies such as Thor, Captain America, and The Avengers on the basis of Thor/Loki's godhood and Captain America's patriotic bent? Or do they let artistic license slide for such movies?

How about super hero movies in general?

"Oh, when Captain America throws his mighty shield...."

31

Jesus=The archangel Michael?

by WatchTowerofBabel in

(the first chapter of hebrews seems quite explicit on the issue).

but since scriptural texts don't seem quite enough for my jdub kinfolks (wtf?

), i tried to find out where this poppycock idea first popped up.. .

Cold Steel

Jesus premortal name is translated "Jehovah." In the Old Testament, Jehovah is the judge of both men and nations. He is the first and the last, the beginning and the end (all titles of Christ). John also notes that "The father judgeth no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son." (John 5:22) If Jehovah is our judge, he clearly is not the Father. Since I don't have a New World Translation, how is this translated there?

Oh, and speaking of the NWT, do the missionaries sell them? If so, how much? And who pays for their magazines and booklets? Do they foot the bill or does the FDS foot the bill for lunch?

8

"New Light" on the "Great Crowd"?

by Quendi in

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Cold Steel

I can’t understand who would want to live forever on an Earth that’s a garden. In other words, think of GROUNDHOG DAY for trillions and trillions of years, world without end. Where the JWs get...confused...is that they believe that “flesh and blood” cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. And since the resurrection is physical for (to them) most people, then there has to be two classes.

What they fail to understand is that while flesh and “blood” (the corrupting agent) cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, flesh and bone can. Jesus did everything but rent a bill board informing the apostles that “a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see I have.” So the JWs believe he simply materialized a body because, after all, physical bodies cannot go through walls and ceilings. If physical bodies have spirit coursing through their veins instead of blood, and if they have bodies of glory surpassing that of the sun in brilliance, they certainly should be able to pass through objects that are solid to us.

The scriptures say that the resurrection of the faithful will be after the resurrection of Christ’s, and that those so glorified will be co-heirs with Christ and that they will inherit “all that the Father has.” That’s certainly better than inheriting a bunch of plants and trees for a gazillion years. I want to pet the nice cats, too, but not for eternity! How long is eternity? It’s long enough to count every grain of sand, every rock, pebble and every piece of grit on the planet several trillion times (for a start). In other words, most JWs have no idea how long eternity is! The only way around it is to periodically have your memory rescinded to keep from going mad. Even heavenly beings can grow bored unless they progress and grow in knowledge, power, glory and works.

One scholar, writing about theosis, reports: “The theme of deification in fact is explicit in the Syriac Testament of Adam . There Adam explains to his son Seth that God would eventually fulfill Adam’s desire for deification. Just before being cast out of the Garden, the Lord tells him, ‘Adam, Adam, do not fear. You wanted to be a god; I will make you a god, not right now, but after the space of many years.’”

The Eastern Orthodox defines theosis: Theosis is personal communion with God “face to face.” To the Western mind, this idea may seem incomprehensible, even sacrilegious, but it derives unquestionably from Christ’s teachings. Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the messianic dream of the Jewish race; His mission to connect us with the Kingdom of God—a Kingdom not of this world. When Jesus said, “You are gods,” or “be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect,” or “the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father,” this is to be taken literally. For those who are interested, further Biblical evidence for this can be found in Leviticus 11:44-45; 20:7-8; Deuteronomy 18:13; Psalms 82:1,6; Romans 6:22; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:2-4.”

Another Orthodox writer puts it this way:

I said, “You are gods,

And all of you are children of the Most High.” (Psalm 82:6)

This is a verse that most Protestants do not underline in their Bibles. What on earth does it mean—“you are gods”? Doesn’t our faith teach that there is only one God, in three Persons? How can human beings be gods?

In the Orthodox Church, this concept is neither new nor startling. It even has a name: theosis. Theosis is the understanding that human beings can have real union with God, and so become like God to such a degree that we participate in the divine nature.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) also believe in theosis to the point that man can even join in the creation process. Both they and the Orthodox believe that man never ceases in progressing. Whether this view is correct or not, I do NOT believe that we can continue progressing if we’re returned to a garden setting to waste our years in endless family reunions, even if they do rerun STAR TREK.

Church Fathers and Theosis

St. Irenaeus of Lyons (d. A.D. 202) declared that "We have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods. … (Jesus Christ) became what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself."

Clement of Alexandria (d. A.D. 215) believed that in the "future life" we will be among "gods … those who have become perfect … and become pure in heart … They are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Savior."

Tertullian, the first great Latin Christian author (d. A.D. 225), wrote that, through divine grace, the saved "shall be even gods."

Origen of Alexandria (d. A.D. 251) believed in "the Father as the one true God," but acknowledged "other beings besides the true God, who have become gods by having a share of God."

And the translator of the enormously influential Latin Vulgate Bible, St. Jerome (d. A.D. 419), insisted that "God made man for that purpose, that from men they may become gods. … They who cease to be mere men, abandon the ways of vice, and are become perfect, are gods and sons of the Most High."

31

Jesus=The archangel Michael?

by WatchTowerofBabel in

(the first chapter of hebrews seems quite explicit on the issue).

but since scriptural texts don't seem quite enough for my jdub kinfolks (wtf?

), i tried to find out where this poppycock idea first popped up.. .

Cold Steel

This is from a paper entitled Adam In Ancient Texts and the Restoration by LDS author Matt Roper. The Mormons have always believed that Adam was Michael, also the Ancient of Days. I've edited out the Mormon stuff and left the apocraphal information in. The entire paper can be found at the above link. It's worth reading.

----------------------------------

Adam In Ancient Texts

Some recent scholarship has focused on evidence that the question of Adam’s pre-existence may have been a matter of some controversy in later Judaism. Here it is important to remember that ancient Judaism was not a monolithic religious entity, but consisted of a variety of competing and sometimes conflicting factions and groups which were often at religious and ideological odds with one another. The Talmud contains an interesting reference which states, “Our rabbi’s taught: Adam was created [last of all beings] on the eve of Sabbath. Why so? Lest the minim [i.e. heretics] should say: The Holy One, blessed be He, had a partner in His work of creation.” 8 In his seminal study, The Name of God and the Angel of the Lord, Jarl Fossum notes that this statement from the Talmud reflects earlier controversy between competing factions of Judaism over the question of the First Man (Adam) and his role in the creation. More specifically, there were those, who later Jews considered heretics (minim) who held that Adam was God’s “associate” in the creation of the world. This earlier Jewish view of Adam may be reflected in an early midrash which claims that, “God took counsel with the souls of the righteous in creating the universe.” The Jewish proponent of this belief interpreted the passage in 1 Chronicle 4:23 which speaks of King Solomon’s workers in terms of God as the king of creation, where the pre-existent righteous are said to have been present with God when he oversaw their work under his direction.

These were the formers and those that dwelt among plantations and hedges; there they were with the King in his work” (1 Chron. iv.23). “These were the formers”: They are termed thus on account of the verse “Then Yhwh Elohim formed man (Gen. Ii.7) “And those that dwell among plantations” corresponds to “And the Lord planted a garden in the east” (Gen. ii.8). “And hedges” corresponds to “I have placed the sand for the bound of the sea” (Jer. v.22). “There they were with the King in his work”: With the supreme King of kings, the Holy One, blessed be He, sat the souls of the righteous, with whom he took counsel before creating the world. 9

Concerning this passage Fossum states, “The midrash agrees with the rabbinic tradition that God in Gen. i.26 ‘took counsel’ with his agents. But it goes further than the expositions examined above in that it explicitly calls God’s agents ‘makers’,”formers’,with reference to Genesis ii.7.” 10 We might also note that the pre-existent righteous with whom God takes counsel are also said to have been already present when God sets the bound of the sea, an event which occurs on the second day of creation in Genesis. Another midrash states, “Before the world was created, there was none to praise God and know Him. He created the angels and the holy Hayyot, the heavens and their host, and Adam as well. They all were to praise and glorify their Creator.” 11

This tradition of a pre-existent First man (Adam) persisted in Greco-Roman times, where some Jews and Gnostic Christians associated the “light” mentioned in Genesis 1:3 with the pre-existent first man Adam. This seems to have been based on the fact that Greek word phos in the Septuagint for Genesis could mean both “light” and “man,” (a word play that is not found, however in the Hebrew). The Gospel of the Egyptians, one of the texts discovered at Nag Hammadi Egypt speaks of “The first man…through whom and to whom everything became, (and) without whom nothing became.” 12 Fossum states, “In the so-called Nassene Homily summarized by Hyppolytus, the celestial Adamas is said to have brought the chaotic matter to rest in primordial times (see VI.viii.22). Furthermore, it is he who constantly rotates the universe in a circle (see VI.viii.34). Finally, he emits the world ocean which is surrounding the universe (see VI.viii.20).” 13

Several so-called Jewish magical texts also portray the first man as pre-existent and as participating in the creation of the cosmos. In these texts Adam is addressed as “father of the world” a term which in Hellenistic times was synonymous with the creator of the world. He is also described as one who “filled the whole universe with air, who hung up the fire from the [heavenly] water and separated the earth from the water.” 14 In another related text, the heavenly Adam is portrayed as possessing the “the powerful name” possessed by God in the creation. 15 After surveying numerous early Jewish, Christian and Gnostic traditions about the heavenly man, Fossum concludes, “that when the rabbis had to maintain that Adam was created on the eve of the Sabbath, they were contending against a doctrine of a heavenly man who was pre-existent or had been brought into being on the first day of creation.” Although found in later Gnosticism, “this doctrine was of Jewish origin.” 16

Recent scholarship suggests that some of these Jewish traditions about the Pre-existence of the first man may be traced to the book of Job. There, Job’s friend Eliphaz challenges the suffering man’s claims to wisdom, asking, “Are you the firstborn of the human race? Were you brought forth before the hills? Have you listened in the council of God? And do you limit wisdom to yourself? What do you know that we do not know?” (Job 15:7-9 NRSV). Eliphaz’ point is that Job cannot lay claim to such heavenly wisdom. Behind his sarcastic challenge, however, rests an understanding that the first man could indeed lay claim to such heavenly wisdom. Several elements in these verses lead to this conclusion,

First, in contrast to the Genesis account of the creation, the first man in Job is described in the text as having been born or brought forth rather than “created” (Genesis 1:27) or “formed”(Gen 2:7). In a recent study of the first man mythology in the Book of Job Dexter Callender notes, “In these words of Eliphaz, we learn that the first human was thought to have been born before the hills. The verbal root here is hwl which means ‘to dance or writhe’. It is used in connection with birth imagery, denoting writhing in travail; and hence can render the meaning ‘to bear or bring forth.’” The meaning of the verb is clear in the parallelism here with yld as in Isaiah 51:2. In other words, “The first human is described as having come into existence through natural means, that is through birth.” 17 This usage points to an event which precedes the formation of man from the dust of the earth in Genesis 2:7.

Second, the first man in Job 15:7 is said to be born “before the hills,” a term which is also used of the personified figure of wisdom in Proverbs, where personified wisdom is said to have been possessed by God at the beginning, “before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth” (Proverbs 8:25). In the Genesis account of the creation man’s physical body is created on the sixth day, yet the hills and mountains do not appear until the division of the waters from the dry land on the second day of creation. This suggests a pre-mortal birth and existence for the first man mentioned in Job which precedes the creation of his body on earth and its placement in the Garden of Eden in Genesis chapter 2.

Third, Eliphaz’ question, “Have you listened in the council of God?” is informed by a context which places the first man in God’s heavenly council where he has access to heavenly wisdom. “According to Eliphaz, the wisdom of the primordial human came as a result of his presence within the council of God, and the fact that he ‘listened.’” 18 Callender observes that the use of the verbs in this passage may be, “alluding to a particular divine council [cf. Gen. 1:26] in which the plan of creation was revealed” or it may indicate continuing access, meaning “art thou wont to be a listener.” 19

Fourth, in Job 38-41, the Lord lists various things that Job, as a mortal cannot possibly know, but which God does know by virtue of his wisdom as Creator. “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy” (Job 38:4-7). According to Herbert May, “The motif of the First Man, created before the earth appears in Job 15:7, 8 and is also found in Job 38:4-7.... In Job 38 the theme is wisdom and knowledge which Job, in contrast with God, does not have; he was not there (as First Man was there) when God laid the foundations of the earth and the members of God’s council (the morning stars, the sons of God) rejoiced.” 20 In response to God’s question, Job, as an imperfect mortal would have to admit that he did not know, but the first man could have answered “yes,” since as one with associated with God at the creation he had access to divine wisdom about the creation of the earth. In fact, as Callender puts it, “The primal human...was present at the creation and by virtue of that fact possessed wisdom in its most intimate details. The divine speeches in [Job] chapters 38-41 make clear that the secrets of the universe lie within the primordium, the epoch of creation. As one who ‘was born then’, he knew the deepest and most esoteric of knowledge.” 21 Thus, “In the world-view of the writer of Job and his audience the first human is an exalted being.... He is numbered among the sons of God.” 22

Foreknowledge of God and the necessity for a Savior

Another theme found in the ancient literature on Adam is the teaching that God knew before hand that Adam would fall and in Christian literature, the idea that knowing before-hand of man’s future transgression, God would provide a Savior by which man could be saved. In a Coptic Christian work, the Discourse on the Abbaton, at the creation God sends an angel to retrieve clay from the earth to form man’s body. The earth objects, complaining of the wickedness that will be committed by man if he is created and placed upon the earth.

If thou takest me to Him, He will mould me into a form, and I shall become a man, and a living soul. And very many sins shall come forth from my heart (or, body), and many fornications, ans slanderous abuse, and jealousy, and hatred and contention shall come forth from his hand, and many murders and sheddings of blood shall come forth from his hand…. Let me stay here and go back to the ground and be quiet.23

In spite of the earth’s objections, the angel carries some clay to God for the formation of Adam’s body. After God creates Adam’s body, however, there is a discussion in heaven between the Father and the Son about what to do about man. According to this text

He left him lying for forty days and forty nights without putting breath into him. And he heaved sighs over him daily saying, “If I put breath into this [man], he must suffer many pains.” And I said unto my Father, “Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him.” And my Father said unto Me, “If I put breath into him, My Beloved Son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him come back to his primal state.” And I said unto my Father, “Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfil thy command.”24

It is clear from this text that God knows before-hand that man will transgress and that it is necessary to appoint an advocate for man, and that Jesus willingly offered to suffer the pains of man’s redemption, even before man was given life.

Adam in the Garden

Recent studies by Michael Stone, W. Lipscomb, Gary Anderson and others have focused on a set of Armenian Christian Adam and Eve texts. These texts were first published in Armenian in 1898 and only in English in the last several decades. 25 These texts discuss the events which took place in the Garden of Eden before the Fall. In one of these entitled, Adam and Eve and the Incarnation, the serpent tells Eve, “God was a man like you. When he ate of the fruit of this tree he became God of all” 26 In The History of the Creation and Transgression of Adam, the serpent states, “God was like you, because he had not eaten of that fruit, When he ate it, he attained the glory of divinity.” Speaking of devil’s words to Eve, Michael Stone, the editor and translator of the recently published Armenian and Georgian Adam and Eve texts observes, “The formulation in our text says not just that humans will become like God (gods)” but also that “God was himself originally human and became divine through eating the fruit.” 27 This variation on the serpent’s words is also found in several later medieval Jewish texts about Adam and Eve. 28 In the Transgression of Adam, after Eve partakes of the fruit, Adam asks her, “Why have you eaten the fruit?” Eve responds by saying, “The fruit is very sweet. Take and you taste, and notice the sweetness of this fruit” but Adam refuses, saying, ‘I cannot taste it.” According to this particular account Eve the begins to cry and beg Adam to eat and “do not separate me from you.” After some deliberation (three hours according to one account) Adam reasons, “It is better for me to die than to become separated and detached from this woman.” Then he partakes of the fruit as well.

These and other extra-canonical texts indicate that after the redemption of Christ that Adam would be taken to paradise and that after the resurrection he would be restored to his former inheritance which he had lost at the Fall. The significance here is that Adam’s restoration to his pre-mortal inheritance, where according to these texts he once reigned under God as a king and at God’s specific command was even worshiped by the angels, suggests a return to a state where he could again receive such adoration, a state clearly suggestive of deification. The theme of deification in fact is explicit in the Syriac Testament of Adam. There Adam explains to his son Seth that God would eventually fulfil Adam’s desire for deification. Just before being cast out of the Garden, the Lord tells him, “Adam, Adam, do not fear. You wanted to be a god; I will make you a god; not right now, but after the space of many years.”

For your sake I will taste death and enter into the house of the dead…. And after three days, while I am in the tomb, I will raise up the body I received from you. And I will set you at the right hand of my divinity, and I will make you a god just like you wanted.”*

8b.Sanh. 38a.

9 Genesis Rabba 8:7.

10 Fossum, The Name of God and the Angel of the Lord, 210.

11 Ginzberg, Legends of the Jews, 1:83.

12 James M. Robinson, The Nag Hammadi Library (San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1988), 212.

13 Fossum, The Name of God and the Angel of the Lord, 267.

14 PGM IV, 1170-1204, in Hans Dieter Betz, The Greek Magical Papyri in Translation (Chicago and London: University of Chicago Press, *date*), 61.

15 PGM 1:195-219, in Betz, The Greek Magical Papyri , 8.

16 Fossum, The Name of God and the Angel of the Lord, 281.

17 Dexter E. Callender, Adam in Myth and History: Ancient Israelite Perspectives on the Primal Human (Winona Lake, Indiana: Eisenbrauns, 2000), 141.

18 Callendar, Adam in Myth and History, 175.

19 Callender, Adam in Myth and History, 147. Citing Driver and Gray, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Book of Job, 96.

20 Herbert G. May, “The King in the Garden of Eden.” In Israel’s Prophetic Heritage. Ed. B.W. Anderson and W. Harrelson (New York: Harper, 1962), 172-173.

21 Callender, Adam in Myth and History, 176.

22 Callender, Adam in Myth and History, 213.

23Discourse on Abbaton, folio10b, in E. A. Wallis Budge, ed. And Translator, Coptic Martyrdoms etc. in the Dialect of Upper Egypt (London: Oxford University Press, 1914), 481. Here one is reminded of Enoch’s vision in the Latter-day Saints’ Book of Moses, “And it came to pass that Enoch looked upon the earth; and he heard a voice from the bowels thereof, saying: Wo, wo is me, the mother of men; I am pained, I am weary because of the wickedness of my children, When shall I rest, and be cleansed from the filthiness which is gone forth out of me? When will my Creator sanctify me, that I may rest, and righteousness for a season abide upon my face?” (Moses 7:48).

24 Discourse on Abbaton, folios 11b-12a, in Budge, Coptic Martyrdoms, 482.

25 W. Lowndes Lipscomb, The Armenian Apocryphal Adam Literature (University of Pennsylvania, 1990), 7.

26 Adam and Eve and the Incarnation, 4 (M5913), in Michael Stone, Armenian Apocrypha Relating to Adam and Eve (Leiden: Brill, 1996), 25.

27 Stone, Armenian Apocrypha Relating to Adam and Eve, 25.

28 “He well knows that if you eat thereof your eyes will be opened, and you will know how to create the world just as He.” Chronicles of Jerahmeel, 22:3, in M. Gaster, ed., The Chronicles of Jerahmeel; or, The Hebrew Bible Historiale (New York: KTAV Publishing House, 1971), 47; “What he said, however, was that God ate of the tree and so built the world. `Therefore,’ he went on, `eat you of it and you shall create worlds.” Zohar, Genesis 36a, in Harry Sperling, ed., The Zohar (New York: Rebecca Bennet Publications, 1958), 134.

8

Annual Meeting Highlights (warning this might cause you to lose your lunch)

by thecrushed in

here it is from my unsuspecting source.

enjoy the rotten spiritual food.

http://www.2shared.com/document/ssly8gou/annualmeeting2012.html.

Cold Steel

So how is the FDS to be headed, and what is the legal succession within the organization?

Specifically it was reported:

So [Matthew 24:]45 mentions the appointment of the FDS and this happened in 1919 after the cleansing of the organization. Who are the FDS?: [it] is "a small group of anointed brothersduring Jesus presenceserving at Headquarters who are directly involved in the preparing and dispensing of spiritual food." This is in line with the scriptural example of how Jehovah has always used a small group of people to teach and dispense spiritual food to the many. In the 1st century not all of the anointed were involved with dispensing spiritual food, it was only the apostles and older men (governing body) that did so.

In point of fact, the scriptures never state when or where the appointment of the FDS occurred (see Amos 3:7) Also in point of fact, the description of the FDS is not in line with the scriptural example of how [God] has always used a "small group of people to teach and dispense spiritual food to the many." Anciently, God used the Twelve Apostles, who were led by a senior member of the quorum (like Peter) to whom fell the revelation regarding circumcision and the repealing the Mosaic dietary restrictions. But even more anciently, he used prophets, not committees, to teach and dispense spiritual food to the many. And when God established lines of authority for the people, he always used the law of Witnesses. With Moses there were the 70 elders of Israel plus Joshua, Aaron and others, who saw the God of Israel. Apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church with Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone. In fact, God never once used "a small group of people to teach and dispense spiritual food to the many" who were not apostles led by revelation. So are we to accept the dispensation of spiritual food to the many to be revelation from On High? On the JWs originial website, they denied that their religion ever received revelation in the same manner the apostles did, as though there was something wrong with it. "Light," whether it's new or old, is revelation in than how could it not be?

30

Who in the hell ate Abraham,s food, Angels or God?

by jam in

ok folks,.

gen.18;1-8 the lord appeared to him by the oak tree.. gen.18:5 he fetch a morsel of bread for his guest.. gen.18;6 sarah makes meal, knead it and made cakes.. gen.18:7 abraham ran to the herd and took a calf, tender.

and good.. gen.18:8 he set it before them and he stood by them under.

Cold Steel

According to the scriptures, the term "angel" simply translates to be someone who is "sent."

It's entirely possible that some of the angels in the Old Testament were mortal men. By using the delegation of authority, these angels can eat, speak and act like mortal men, yet use the power of God to bring about God's purposes.

27

You Won't be Resurrected.

by smmcroberts in

i'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but if you die prior to armageddon you won't be resurrected.

please read my latest blog article to find out why this is so according to the watchtower beliefs.. http://smmcroberts.net/blog/you-wont-be-resurrected/.

Cold Steel

According to the scriptures, there's no reason that someone who died fifty years ago can't be resurrected now. Jesus was the firstfruits of those who slept. After his resurrection, the scriptures teach that many of the bodies of the saints that slept arose and went into the city and were seen by many. Some of these may have lived and died in the Old Testament times, as some of the ancient prophets for example.

The body is a tabernacle and houses the spirit of man. The cellular mechanism that replicates cells of the human body suffers very slight mutations or distortions that keep this replication from being perfect. Thus the body ages and eventually breaks down.

The spirit at death is released and people who have had life after life experiences say they can recall every aspect of their lives down to the tiniest smell, color and word. All recollections are extraordinarily vivid. So also is the resurrection of the dead.

27

You Won't be Resurrected.

by smmcroberts in

i'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but if you die prior to armageddon you won't be resurrected.

please read my latest blog article to find out why this is so according to the watchtower beliefs.. http://smmcroberts.net/blog/you-wont-be-resurrected/.

Cold Steel

Very good point. I had the same thoughts about the transporter in STAR TREK. The transporter can break down your body and your intellect and then create an exact duplicate on the other end. You'll be reconstructed down to the very molecule, only it won't be you. It will be a copy. In fact, when one of the Away teams picks up something that causes them to age rapidly, the problem is fixed by deconstructing their aged bodies and replacing them with the last matrix that was stored in the transporter. In short, the Captain, Spock and the rest were disintegrated and replaced by the previous copies. And of course their memories only went up to the point where they previously used the transporter.

I think McCoy understood this from the beginning, and that's why he hated using the transporter. Who knows? Perhaps he was on to something.

In all seriousness, the JW belief is ridiculous. Man has a spirit and he not only exists after death, he lived for countless generations before the Earth was created. Man's intelligence is eternal and can never be destroyed. When resurrected, his spirit and body will be reunited and all will have physical bodies. The righteous will become coheirs with Christ and they will receive all that the Father has.

Not only was this taught by the apostles John and Paul, it also was taught by the early church fathers. See also:

Deification in Greek Patristic Thought:The Cappadocian Fathers’ Strategic Adaptation of a Tradition

Irenaeus (115-202)

"While man gradually advances and mounts towards perfection; that is, he approaches the Eternal. The Eternal is perfect; and this is God. Man has first to come into being, then to progress, and by progressing come to manhood, and having reached manhood to increase, and thus increasing to persevere, and persevering to be glorified, and thus see his Lord." That is, "We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods. "

This is why the notion of being resurrected to live in a garden paradise is so illogical. Did God create man to live in a garden? Not according to either the scriptures or the early church fathers. Man is a spirit with a tabernacle of flesh and blood. After the resurrection, he will be a spirit with a tabernacle of flesh and bone (blood being the corrupting element). There will not be two classes of resurrected beings. That is a false doctrine. If man was just a temporary creature, you would be absolutely correct about resurrected beings being just copies.

It reminds me of an epitaph on a grave in Old Hill Cemetary, Plymouth, Mass. It reads:

IF I WAS SO SOON
TO BE DONE FOR,
WHAT WAS I EVER
BEGUN FOR?

And these, by Epicurus

I WAS NOT,
I WAS.
I AM NOT, I CARE NOT

DEATH IS NOTHING TO US, SINCE WHEN WE ARE,
DEATH HAS NOT COME; AND WHEN DEATH
HAS COME, WE ARE NOT!

8

Was There a First Century Governing Body? - Fred Franz's View

by JWB in

was there a first century governing body?

- fred franz's view.

on 7 september 1975, during the graduation day of the 59th class of gilead, wts president nathan knorr introduced wts vice-president frederick franz to the audience.

Cold Steel

There was a Governing Body in the First Century. It was called the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and it operated by the principle of revelation. Not only did the revelations come by angels, it came by the Holy Spirit; and it directed the church not only in doctrine, but in where missionaries should be sent. These apostles all were called of God, as was Aaron, and when the church fell into apostasy, it fell from within. The JW Governing Board, on the other hand, was a group of self-appointed men who are NOT led by revelation. None has ever claimed revelation, none has ever entertained angels, heard voices or seen God. In short, who appointed them according to them?

Manmade religions are comprised of men who appoint themselves. You can get a ministerial cetificate over the Internet and start your own church. And if you do, you'll have just as much divine authority as the Governing Body. You can have the same doctrines and eliminate the one denying blood transfusions, or you can adopt your own doctrines.